The joys of participatory entertainment: Coffee House salons resume

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After a busy holiday season, activity has resumed in Melioria. A recent open house was well attended, and this last Saturday, the coffee house salons started once more.

You may find them a bit dry, or perhaps historically implausible. That's ok, if you do--I tend to loathe things that other people enjoy, like shopping or watching sports. But I do love these discussions.

Aldo usually provides us with intriguing period readings to look at beforehand, and we all seem to do some preparation in advance. We assemble at the coffee house at a given time and then we engage in the amusing mental exercise of having a discussion while taking on the perspectives of relatively informed and enlightened people of the 1780s. Are we discussing things from the perspective of a typical 18th century person? No, not really. But it's fun, and we keep learning things. For example, most of my adult life I knew who Rousseau and Diderot were, but I never actually read any of their stuff. Now I have, and it's pretty cool.

I look on this is as an excellent example of what I think is the most common and dynamic form of educational process that takes place in virtual worlds: "cooperative self-directed learning." A group of interested, interesting people develops a collective reason (or excuse, if you will) for doing individual reading and study, then they get together to share what they have learned. They encourage each other, and they motivate each other, but ultimately, what they get out of is pretty much equivalent to what they put into it.

In the end it is about amusing ourselves and being entertained. But it is entertainment in which we actively participate.

The following is a Melioria Salon partial Transcript:

“In Sickness and In Health”

January 7, 2012

Attending: Aldo Stern, Diogeneia Kuhr, Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud, Oona Riaxik, JJ Drinkwater, Serenek Timeless

Pictures: https://picasaweb.google.com/109722012977197738104/MelioriaSalons#

[13:13] Aldo Stern: The subject matter is, of course a question of science, but one that affects us all...

[13:14] Aldo Stern: matters of disease, theories of how it spreads...modern treatments for it...and if we have time...the responsibilities of us all to foster good health among the public

[13:15] Diogeneia: if I may begin with a comment...

[13:15] Diogeneia: you know I mentioned my brother...

[13:15] Diogeneia: and being wounded...

[13:16] Diogeneia: you know what the doctors wished to do for him, once thy bandaged his leg...was of course to bleed him

[13:16] Diogeneia: it is for many still the standard, to try to adjust the humors within the body...

[13:16] Diogeneia: but he said it made him feel weaker...

[13:17] Diogeneia: and so he subsequently avoided the surgeon whene'er he saw the poor man coming...

[13:17] Diogeneia: and he healed quite nicely without the benefit of bleeding...

[13:17] Oona Riaxik: To my mind, he had already been bled by the wound. Perhaps leeches should be reserved to internal maladies

[13:17] Diogeneia: better perhaps, he thinks

[13:17] Diogeneia: what may I ask do you my friends think of the practice?

[13:18] JJ Drinkwater: Of bleeding?

[13:18] Diogeneia: ja,Fraulein Oona, she has a good point, he already did the bleeding with the wounding

[13:19] Aldo Stern: yet the surgeon wished to take more, no?

[13:19] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: I've always been skeptical about this practice

[13:19] Aldo Stern: indeed Signor Conte?

[13:19] Sere Timeless: It is my understanding that the medicine of Galen, the balance of the humors, and the value of bleeding is much out of favor with those who do the most healing ...the battlefield surgeons.

[13:19] Oona Riaxik: was this a local physician or one acquainted with war hospitals?

[13:20] Oona Riaxik: Precisely, this is what I hear of war surgeons as well. Which makes me wonder if they brought in a local doctor to care for your brother

[13:20] Oona Riaxik: or news reaches the colonies too slowly

[13:20] Diogeneia: the surgeon of the regiment died of a fever some time ago

[13:21] Diogeneia: so the doctor my brother was seeing was a civilian ... an American

[13:21] Oona Riaxik: well then he simply wanted to effect your brothers end!

[13:21] Oona Riaxik: by bleeding him to death

[13:21] Diogeneia: Ach, no, it was a loyalist ...

[13:21] Sere Timeless: I wonder where this American doctor was trained. Or if he was trained.

[13:22] JJ Drinkwater: Surely the latest medical thinking does not reach the Americas quickly

[13:22] Oona Riaxik: they have not seen enough of war *sigh* to make this observation

[13:23] Aldo Stern: perhaps...although they do have great scientists such as Dr. Franklin...but I do not know if any of their most forward looking thinkers do so in the field of medicine

[13:24] Sere Timeless: The difficulty, I think, in discontinuing ineffective medical practice is that we know so little of the mechanisms of disease we cannot invent more effective practices.

[13:25] Diogeneia: Well the King of Prussia when he was wounded in the 7 years war, I know they bled him...but for my brothers sake, I am glad the thinking changes...I have never felt very good after bleeding, and so I avoid it

[13:26] JJ Drinkwater: We have begun to understand that health is a sign that the mechanism of the body is functioning correctly, but what that mechanism comprises is still largely a mystery, is it not?

[13:26] Aldo Stern: to a great extent yes...but we have made great strides beyond merely saying, "here is what the ancients thought, so it must be correct"

[13:27] Oona Riaxik: the mechanisms are but we still have so much information about the course of the disease

[13:27] Oona Riaxik: that we can study it progression and learn form this

[13:27] JJ Drinkwater bows "You are quite correct, signorina"

[13:27] Aldo Stern: there is some very interesting thinking I have seen, for example in Diderot's encyclopedia...

[13:28] Aldo Stern: and I note that often conclusions .. or theories at any rate, are based upon actually examination and autopsies

[13:28] Oona Riaxik: well, sickness occurs in living bodies! yet another practice that needs revision

[13:29] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: but recognizing an effective remedy, doesn’t necessarily mean we comprehend the mechanism behind, a lot is intuition, trial and error

[13:30] JJ Drinkwater: So we have begun by casting off old certainties, and admitting our need of knowledge drawn from examples

[13:30] Oona Riaxik: We cannot wait to treat until we understand the mechanism, we have only trial and error - and critically, observation to aid us.

[13:30] Aldo Stern: so are you arguing, Signore Conte and Lord Twilight, that the body is not unlike a machine...with predictable mechanisms at work?

[13:31] JJ Drinkwater: That is the most modern medical thinking, as I understand it

[13:31] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: some could be predictable, provided we had proper insight

[13:31] Sere Timeless: We have known for over a century from the work of Dr. William Harvey that blood flow, for example is a very mechanistic process.

[13:31] Oona Riaxik: and the spread of disease is also looking predictable

[13:31] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: oh yes

[13:32] Aldo Stern: *smiles* then we may rule out such factors as demons and curses

[13:32] Sere Timeless: Which would lead one to suspect that other mechanical and causal principles are at work in our bodies.

[13:32] JJ Drinkwater: Are we not, after all, composed of matter? And does matter not behave according to certain laws?

[13:33] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: so true, but these laws seem so intricate

[13:33] Diogeneia: ja, even the madness....or melancholia, it may seem to the uneducated that there is no mechanistic cause, but if you do enough observation, eventually one would surely find there is some rational reason for irrationality...

[13:34] Diogeneia: too much bile, a fever in the brain, not enough of something, rather than a supernatural cause

[13:35] Aldo Stern: *nods*

[13:35] Oona Riaxik: well the church will not like to hear this thinking!

[13:35] Aldo Stern: even the ancients did not simply say, "oh well the gods are ill favored today and so they make us sick"

[13:36] Aldo Stern: they made observations such as the influences of swampy areas on the health of their people...they noticed a connection to fetid water and decaying matter, and so either did not build near swampy ground, or they built their great drains to carry off the dampness

[13:37] Aldo Stern: *smiles* something that we can learn from, especially for those who believe in the miasmatic theories of disease

[13:38] Sere Timeless: And so is it the nature of human thought to be able to infer that there must be a causal connection even if we cannot explain the mechanism?

[13:39] JJ Drinkwater: The causes, as M. le Comte has observed, are intricate

[13:39] Aldo Stern: I think that was part of the Conte's point ... that even if we cannot be sure of the exact mechanism at work, we should act as best we can, based on our best understanding and observations

[13:40] Oona Riaxik: agreed. So again,

[13:41] Oona Riaxik: why does the practice of bleeding persist - is so accepted even when many in the field

[13:41] Oona Riaxik: know of its deleterious effects - is this to make the patients feel that they are getting care in spite of our lack of knowledge?

[13:41] Aldo Stern: well going back to how doctors are trained

[13:41] Aldo Stern: most after all do not attend a school of any sort, they study with an experienced doctor

[13:42] Aldo Stern: and follow him as an assistant until they feel they know enough to practice

[13:42] Aldo Stern: consequently, old habits and ideas will be passed on, no?

[13:42] JJ Drinkwater: A valuable opportunity for observation, if they will use it

[13:42] Oona Riaxik: surely however if ones sees patients grow faint after bleeding, why recommend it? to collect coin?

[13:42] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: but some convictions are so difficult to eradicate, even if they have been proven to be wrong. We like continuity, and not be in uncertainty

[13:43] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: ...and so maintain our old beliefs

[13:43] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: but that's not the way forward

[13:43] Diogeneia: maybe they don't like to admit how little they know, and fear business will diminish if they do too much experimenting and observation

[13:43] Oona Riaxik: it would be considered a poor doctor to be called to treat and not treat with something... rather than say, "bleeding will not help you, I do not know the cause, so just rest."

[13:43] Aldo Stern: so may I ask...you all here are very forward thinking and enlightened people...what sorts of treatments for various maladies do you think are of value?

[13:43] Aldo Stern: I myself, have observed how much better I feel after imbibing several cups of this excellent coffee...I may conclude from that that the chemicals in the mixture have some beneficial effect upon my internal mechanisms

[13:44] Aldo Stern: *smiles* so I shall continue my experiments with great enthusiasm

[13:44] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: mmmm, nicotine, where are you? I have some experience on that

[13:44] Sere Timeless: And certainly liquor produces the same feeling of well-being, at least for awhile.

[13:44] Diogeneia: ah, there you go...the tabac as a potent medical herb...

[13:44] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: oooh, tell me, smiles

[13:45] Diogeneia: my other brother ... the one who is a trader among the Indians of northern America...he has written me about how the natives use tabac as a medicinal

[13:45] Sere Timeless: And yet, do we truly believe that tobacco and liquor are good for the body?

[13:45] Oona Riaxik: yes, funny how readily we adopt new cures and yet loathe to be rid of the old... We see how effective these medicines are, tobacco and coffee.

[13:45] Diogeneia: they inhale the fumes for lung troubles, they make poultices of the leaves to put on wounds

[13:45] Diogeneia: I myself am happy just to smoke it...

[13:46] Oona Riaxik: We see that they are good but to a point

[13:46] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: I feel so lucid after actually inhaling

[13:46] Oona Riaxik: the Conte's intricacies come into play here - a fine balance is necessary with these drugs

[13:46] Aldo Stern: ah a good observation signorina Oona...

[13:47] Aldo Stern: there is perhaps a balance of the chemicals that must be maintained...

[13:47] Aldo Stern: and that even a good substance in too much quantity can be bad for the body

[13:47] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, it stimulates the mechanism....but how much stimulation will the mechanism bear?

[13:47] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: that's a good point, the doses, can be decisive also

[13:47] Diogeneia: but that is true with any medicinal, ja? you take too little and it does no good...

[13:48] Diogeneia: but too much, and maybe you get sicker

[13:48] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: if I drink much more coffee, I get all shaky

[13:48] Aldo Stern: an excellent point

[13:48] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: and I have to vomit, if I inhale too much nicotine in whatever way

[13:48] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: so we're back to balance

[13:48] Oona Riaxik: and we all know the ill effects of too much wine

[13:49] Oona Riaxik: so we can establish this balance - a measure of how much is beneficial and how much becomes toxic

[13:49] Aldo Stern: but might not that vary from individual to individual?

[13:50] Oona Riaxik: this could be easily determined by a little experimentation

[13:50] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: yes, it made a whole empire vanish, too much wine, lead in the vases

[13:50] Oona Riaxik: we could do it now!

[13:50] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: *grins*

[13:50] Aldo Stern: obviously there are things that are poisons...

[13:51] Oona Riaxik: perhaps the poison comes form the dose and not the drug?

[13:51] Aldo Stern: there are poisons that must be kept out of the water the people drink ... even the air they breath

[13:51] Oona Riaxik: as we see with coffee nicotine and alcohol as with belladonna

[13:51] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: I like that idea, of the dose/balance

[13:51] Oona Riaxik: and arsenic

[13:51] Aldo Stern: going back to miasmas...what is in the air ... does that need balance as well?

[13:51] Oona Riaxik: ahhh you bring up a difficult one!

[13:52] Aldo Stern: obviously there are always certain "particulates" in the air: the effluvia that is given off by stale, standing water...

[13:52] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: indeed, I find that concept so hard to comprehend

[13:52] Oona Riaxik: it would seem to hold true - the cure, so to speak, may be to change or improve environment rather than dose

[13:52] Aldo Stern: well. it seems obvious that decaying plants and animals

[13:52] Aldo Stern: the wastes of men and beasts...

[13:53] Aldo Stern: as they decay, they give off impurities...

[13:53] Aldo Stern: obviously such things cannot always be avoided

[13:53] Aldo Stern: they are part of the cycles of life

[13:53] Aldo Stern: but it is when there is an imbalance that disease may result it seems...

[13:53] Oona Riaxik: they can be managed like a dose - the ancients managed these things very well

[13:53] JJ Drinkwater: But how are we to examine these particulates, when they are so subtle? How are we to gain knowledge of them?

[13:53] Oona Riaxik: how have we lost this knowledge?

[13:53] Aldo Stern: Again, is it not enough to start with the genereral observation, that when a city sits on a swampy field with rotting plant life...

[13:53] Oona Riaxik: *sigh*

[13:54] Aldo Stern: or one is on a battlefield, the many dead decaying...

[13:54] Aldo Stern: there is then too much of the effluvia and disease results?

[13:55] Diogeneia: Lord Twilight has a good point...if you cannot see such things as the noxious gases given off by decaying matter...how can we capture and study them?

[13:55] Oona Riaxik: this seems apparent - but many more soldiers die of sickness than the injuries of war -

[13:55] Aldo Stern: yes, and we observe that a city that wallows in its own wastes and has dirty water about ... and the people get sick often and in large numbers

[13:55] Oona Riaxik: so what mechanism is at play?

[13:55] JJ Drinkwater: il Professore has partly answered me: we may know them by their effects

[13:57] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: identifying and quantifying gets us halfway already, could that be?

[13:57] Oona Riaxik: we compare healthy tissue and unhealthy tissue to see what differences lie therein

[13:57] Oona Riaxik: or to use Herr Sterns example, we compare water in healthy cities and unhealthy ones

[13:57] Diogeneia: or at least gives us a strategy to follow until we do understand better

[13:57] Oona Riaxik: Si, one must know what to treat in order to treat it

[13:58] Diogeneia: like in the days of the plague, when the nobles left the cities and went to their country estates...they were getting away from the contagion as best they could

[13:59] Sere Timeless: Is there anything to be gained from studying those who remain healthy even in the midst of unclean situations and rampant disease and contagion?

[13:59] Oona Riaxik: Signora brings an excellent question

[13:59] Aldo Stern: an interesting idea Signorina Sere....how might one approach such a task?

[13:59] JJ Drinkwater: Signorina Timeless, what would we study about them?

[14:00] Sere Timeless: That is precisely my question, Signore.

[14:00] Sere Timeless: Presumably there is something about them that renders them immune to disease.

[14:00] Aldo Stern: or if we are looking at this purely as a mechanistic issue

[14:01] Sere Timeless: What I have noticed is that those who have survived a disease such as the pox, do not seem to contract the same disease again.

[14:01] Aldo Stern: there is something they do, something about how they live, what they eat, or something that keeps them from giving into the contagion

[14:02] Aldo Stern: and...yes..there...having had the disease ... or something similar

[14:02] Aldo Stern: renders a person less likely to get it again...

[14:02] JJ Drinkwater: Perhaps Herr Van Leeuwenhoek wonderful device would tell us more, if we examined their tissues....although it is a grisly thought

[14:02] Aldo Stern: a rational explanation, even we do not precisely understand the mechanism that makes it work so

[14:03] Oona Riaxik: Yes van Leeuwenhoek's work is very compelling

[14:04] Oona Riaxik: allowing us to see those differences between healthy and non healthy tissues

[14:04] Oona Riaxik: theses cells as he calls them

[14:04] Oona Riaxik: seem to undergo many changes

[14:05] Diogeneia: there is much o be said for understanding the exact mechanisms of why something works as a treatment...or why an organ or healthy tissue becomes diseased...

[14:05] Diogeneia: but for the most part I think the higher priority is to share information on what works, based on experience and observation...

[14:06] Diogeneia: if we see that a poultice of tabac helps a wound to heal, then use it and worry later about why

[14:06] Oona Riaxik: on this we agree

[14:06] JJ Drinkwater: But what if it seems to help in some cases and harm in others?

[14:07] Oona Riaxik: the colleges should come together with government to set some standards

[14:07] Aldo Stern: that is why I think it is important for there to be publications like the encyclopedia of Diderot...to share the information about what helps and what causes harm

[14:08] Sere Timeless: It would be well enough if the medical colleges would simply systematize the knowledge they already had about the efficacy of various cures.

[14:08] Oona Riaxik: It does seem to help in some and not in others - with open community of physicians, these experiences should be shared to

[14:08] Oona Riaxik: determine better treatments

[14:08] Oona Riaxik: and be implemented more universally

[14:08] Oona Riaxik: Very true Ms. Timeless

[14:09] Aldo Stern: then let us do some sharing...what do each of you think is one of the most important ideas in health and medicine to be discovered ... or agreed upon...in recent years?

[14:09] JJ Drinkwater: Assuredly the circulation of the blood

[14:10] JJ Drinkwater: For if blood circulates, may not other essential fluids, at whose existence we now only guess?

[14:11] Aldo Stern: ah...now that is interesting

[14:12] Sere Timeless: I regret to say, my friends, that I need to attend to some other matters at present. It grieves me to have to leave such an interesting discussion.

[14:12] Joseph-Hyacinthe de Rigaud: au revoir Madame

[14:12] Aldo Stern: thank you for joining us Signorina

Cats of Melioria

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"Why cats?" you say...

"Why not?" I reply.

You point out, "But there are already more pictures of cats than pornographic images on the web--Why more?"


Because I like cats. And it's easier putting up pictures of cats than it is actually writing shit.

Plus these are pretty awesome one and two-prim cats made by Seu Ahn. They are "animated" and only 120 lindens each. Aren't they cool?


I apologize that I don't have a slurl to Seu's shop (which I think is called "Seu's Shop" or something like that). But if you really want to look at it and can't find it in search for some reason, IM me in-world and I'll give you a landmark.


...after all, what kind of waterfront village doesn't have cats?

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What I am learning at the coffee house

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Hey guys, we've been having more coffee house salon sessions in Melioria, and it's been fun and interesting.  We've all been learning some things, not the least of which is a whole bunch of cool stuff about life and society in the 18th century.  A big part of what helps with that is that before each session, we pull together some readings and share them on a notecard with various groups whose members that are invited to take part.  For example, the most recent one, regrading crime and punishment, was preceded by a notecard with the following:

“The social treaty has for its end the preservation of the contracting parties. He who wills the end wills the means also, and the means must involve some risks, and even some losses. He who wishes to preserve his life at others' expense should also, when it is necessary, be ready to give it up for their sake. Furthermore, the citizen is no longer the judge of the dangers to which the law-desires him to expose himself; and when the prince says to him: "It is expedient for the State that you should die," he ought to die, because it is only on that condition that he has been living in security up to the present, and because his life is no longer a mere bounty of nature, but a gift made conditionally by the State.

The death-penalty inflicted upon criminals may be looked on in much the same light: it is in order that we may not fall victims to an assassin that we consent to die if we ourselves turn assassins. In this treaty, so far from disposing of our own lives, we think only of securing them, and it is not to be assumed that any of the parties then expects to get hanged.

Again, every malefactor, by attacking social rights, becomes on forfeit a rebel and a traitor to his country; by violating its laws be ceases to be a member of it; he even makes war upon it. In such a case the preservation of the State is inconsistent with his own, and one or the other must perish; in putting the guilty to death, we slay not so much the citizen as an enemy. The trial and the judgment are the proofs that he has broken the social treaty, and is in consequence no longer a member of the State. Since, then, he has recognised himself to be such by living there, he must be removed by exile as a violator of the compact, or by death as a public enemy; for such an enemy is not a moral person, but merely a man; and in such a case the right of war is to kill the vanquished.

But, it will be said, the condemnation of a criminal is a particular act. I admit it: but such condemnation is not a function of the Sovereign; it is a right the Sovereign can confer without being able itself to exert it. All my ideas are consistent, but I cannot expound them all at once.

We may add that frequent punishments are always a sign of weakness or remissness on the part of the government. There is not a single ill-doer who could not be turned to some good. The State has no right to put to death, even for the sake of making an example, any one whom it can leave alive without danger.

The right of pardoning or exempting the guilty from a penalty imposed by the law and pronounced by the judge belongs only to the authority which is superior to both judge and law, i.e., the Sovereign; each its right in this matter is far from clear, and the cases for exercising it are extremely rare. In a well-governed State, there are few punishments, not because there are many pardons, but because criminals are rare; it is when a State is in decay that the multitude of crimes is a guarantee of impunity. Under the Roman Republic, neither the Senate nor the Consuls ever attempted to pardon; even the people never did so, though it sometimes revoked its own decision. Frequent pardons mean that crime will soon need them no longer, and no one can help seeing whither that leads. But I feel my heart protesting and restraining my pen; let us leave these questions to the just man who has never offended, and would himself stand in no need of pardon.

 -- THE SOCIAL CONTRACT OR PRINCIPLES OF POLITICAL RIGHT, Book II, by Jean Jacques Rousseau, 1762

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Of the Origin of Punishments.

Laws are the conditions under which men, naturally independent, united themselves in society. Weary of living in a continual state of war, and of enjoying a liberty which became of little value, from the uncertainty of its duration, they sacrificed one part of it, to enjoy the rest in peace and security. The sum of all these portions of the liberty of each individual constituted the sovereignty of a nation and was deposited in the hands of the sovereign, as the lawful administrator. But it was not sufficient only to establish this deposit; it was also necessary to defend it from the usurpation of each individual, who will always endeavour to take away from the mass, not only his own portion, but to encroach on that of others. Some motives therefore, that strike the senses were necessary to prevent the despotism of each individual from plunging society into its former chaos. Such motives are the punishments established, against the infractors of the laws. I say that motives of this kind are necessary; because experience shows, that the multitude adopt no established principle of conduct; and because society is prevented from approaching to that dissolution, (to which, as well as all other parts of the physical and moral world, it naturally tends,) only by motives that are the immediate objects of sense, and which being continually presented to the mind, are sufficient to counterbalance the effects of the passions of the individual which oppose the general good. Neither the power of eloquence nor the sublimest truths are sufficient to restrain, for any length of time, those passions which are excited by the lively impressions of present objects.

Of the Punishment of Death.

The useless profusion of punishments, which has never made men better induces me to inquire, whether the punishment of death be really just or useful in a well governed state? What right, I ask, have men to cut the throats of their fellow-creatures? Certainly not that on which the sovereignty and laws are founded. The laws, as I have said before, are only the sum of the smallest portions of the private liberty of each individual, and represent the general will, which is the aggregate of that of each individual. Did any one ever give to others the right of taking away his life? Is it possible that, in the smallest portions of the liberty of each, sacrificed to the good of the public, can be contained the greatest of all good, life? If it were so, how shall it be reconciled to the maxim which tells us, that a man has no right to kill himself, which he certainly must have, if he could give it away to another?

But the punishment of death is not authorised by any right; for I have demonstrated that no such right exists. It is therefore a war of a whole nation against a citizen whose destruction they consider as necessary or useful to the general good. But if I can further demonstrate that it is neither necessary nor useful, I shall have gained the cause of humanity.

The death of a citizen cannot be necessary but in one case: when, though deprived of his liberty, he has such power and connections as may endanger the security of the nation; when his existence may produce a dangerous revolution in the established form of government. But, even in this case, it can only be necessary when a nation is on the verge of recovering or losing its liberty, or in times of absolute anarchy, when the disorders themselves hold the place of laws: but in a reign of tranquillity, in a form of government approved by the united wishes of the nation, in a state well fortified from enemies without and supported by strength within, and opinion, perhaps more efficacious, where all power is lodged in the hands of a true sovereign, where riches can purchase pleasures and not authority, there can be no necessity for taking away the life of a subject.

If the experience of all ages be not sufficient to prove, that the punishment of death has never prevented determined men from injuring society, if the example of the Romans, if twenty years' reign of Elizabeth, empress of Russia, in which she gave the fathers of their country an example more illustrious than many conquests bought with blood; if, I say, all this be not sufficient to persuade mankind, who always suspect the voice of reason, and who choose rather to be led by authority, let us consult human nature in proof of my assertion.

It is not the intenseness of the pain that has the greatest effect on the mind, but its continuance; for our sensibility is more easily and more powerfully affected by weak but repeated impressions, than by a violent but momentary impulse. The power of habit is universal over every sensible being. As it is by that we learn to speak, to walk, and to satisfy our necessities, so the ideas of morality are stamped on our minds by repeated impression. The death of a criminal is a terrible but momentary spectacle, and therefore a less efficacious method of deterring others than the continued example of a man deprived of his liberty, condemned, as a beast of burden, to repair, by his labour, the injury he has done to society, If I commit such a crime, says the spectator to himself, I shall be reduced to that miserable condition for the rest of my life. A much more powerful preventive than the fear of death which men always behold in distant obscurity.

The terrors of death make so slight an impression, that it has not force enough to withstand the forgetfulness natural to mankind, even in the most essential things, especially when assisted by the passions. Violent impressions surprise us, but their effect is momentary; they are fit to produce those revolutions which instantly transform a common man into a Lacedaemonian or a Persian; but in a free and quiet government they ought to be rather frequent than strong.

The execution of a criminal is to the multitude a spectacle which in some excites compassion mixed with indignation. These sentiments occupy the mind much more than that salutary terror which the laws endeavor to inspire; but, in the contemplation of continued suffering, terror is the only, or at least predominant sensation. The severity of a punishment should be just sufficient to excite compassion in the spectators, as it is intended more for them than for the criminal.

A punishment, to be just, should have only that degree of severity which is sufficient to deter others. Now there is no man who upon the least reflection, would put in competition the total and perpetual loss of his liberty, with the greatest advantages he could possibly obtain in consequence of a crime. Perpetual slavery, then, has in it all that is necessary to deter the most hardened and determined, as much as the punishment of death. I say it has more. There are many who can look upon death with intrepidity and firmness, some through fanaticism, and others through vanity, which attends us even to the grave; others from a desperate resolution, either to get rid of their misery, or cease to live: but fanaticism and vanity forsake the criminal in slavery, in chains and fetters, in an iron cage, and despair seems rather the beginning than the end of their misery. The mind, by collecting itself and uniting all its force, can, for a moment, repel assailing grief; but its most vigorous efforts are insufficient to resist perpetual wretchedness.

In all nations, where death is used as a punishment, every example supposes a new crime committed; whereas, in perpetual slavery, every criminal affords a frequent and lasting example; and if it be necessary that men should often be witnesses of the power of the laws, criminals should often be put to death: but this supposes a frequency of crimes; and from hence this punishment will cease to have its effect, so that it must be useful and useless at the same time.

Of Crimes and Punishments, Cesare Bonesana, Marchese Beccaria, 1764

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OF PUNISHMENTS

The misfortunes of the wretched in the face of the severity of the law have induced me to look at the criminal code of nations. The humane author of the essay, Of Crimes and Punishments, is only too right in complaining that punishment is much too often out of proportion to the crime, and sometimes detrimental to the nation it was intended to serve.

Ingenious punishments, in which the human mind seems to have exhausted itself in order to make death terrible, seem rather the inventions of tyranny than of justice.

The punishment of the wheel was first introduced in Germany in times of anarchy, when those who seized royal power wished to terrify, by the device of an unheard-of torture, whoever would dare to rise up against them. In England they used to rip open the belly of a man convicted of high treason, tear out his heart, slap his cheeks with it, and then throw it into the fire. And what, very frequently, was this crime of high treason? During the civil wars, it was to have been faithful to an unfortunate king, and sometimes had to be explained according to the doubtful rights of a conqueror. In time, manners became milder; it is true that they continue to tear out the heart, but it is always after the death of the criminal. The torture is terrible but the death is easy, if death can ever be easy.

IX

OF WITCHES

In 1749 a woman was burned in the Bishopric of Wurtzburg, convicted of being a witch. This is an extraordinary phenomenon in the age in which we live. Is it possible that people who boast of their reformation and of trampling superstition under foot, who indeed supposed that they had reached the perfection of reason, could nevertheless believe in witchcraft, and this more than a hundred years after the so-called reformation of their reason?

In 1652 a peasant woman named Michelle Chaudron, living in the little territory of Geneva, met the devil going out of the city. The devil gave her a kiss, received her homage, and imprinted on her upper lip and right breast the mark that he customarily bestows on all whom he recognizes as his favorites. This seal of the devil is a little mark which makes the skin insensitive, as all the demonographical jurists of those times affirm.

The devil ordered Michelle Chaudron to bewitch two girls. She obeyed her master punctually. The girls' parents accused her of witchcraft before the law. The girls were questioned and confronted with the accused. They declared that they felt a continual pricking in certain parts of their bodies and that they were possessed. Doctors were called, or at least, those who passed for doctors at that time. They examined the girls. They looked for the devil's seal on Michelle's body — what the statement of the case called satannic marks. Into them they drove a long needle, already a painful torture. Blood flowed out, and Michelle made it known, by her cries, that satannic marks certainly do not make one insensitive. The judges, seeing no definite proof that Michelle Chaudron was a witch, proceeded to torture her, a method that infallibly produces the necessary proofs: this wretched woman, yielding to the violence of torture, at last confessed every thing they desired.

The doctors again looked for the satannic mark. They found a little black spot on one of her thighs. They drove in the needle. The torment of the torture had been so horrible that the poor creature hardly felt the needle; thus the crime was established. But as customs were becoming somewhat mild at that time, she was burned only after being hanged and strangled.

In those days every tribunal of Christian Europe resounded with similar arrests. The faggots were lit everywhere for witches, as for heretics. People reproached the Turks most for having neither witches nor demons among them. This absence of demons was considered an infallible proof of the falseness of a religion.

A zealous friend of public welfare, of humanity, of true religion, has stated in one of his writings on behalf of innocence, that Christian tribunals have condemned to death over a hundred thousand accused witches. If to these judicial murders are added the infinitely superior number of massacred heretics, that part of the world will seem to be nothing but a vast scaffold covered with torturers and victims, surrounded by judges, guards and spectators.

X

OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

It is an old saying that a man after he is hanged is good for nothing, and that the punishments invented for the welfare of society should be useful to that society. It is clear that twenty vigorous thieves, condemned to hard labor at public works for the rest of their life, serve the state by their punishment; and their death would serve only the executioner, who is paid for killing men in public. Only rarely are thieves punished by death in England; they are transported overseas to the colonies. The same is true in the vast Russian empire. Not a single criminal was executed during the reign of the autocratic Elizabeth. Catherine II who succeeded her, endowed with a very superior mind, followed the same policy. Crimes have not increased as a result of this humanity, and almost always, criminals banished to Siberia become good men. The same thing has been noticed in the English colonies. This happy change astonishes us, but nothing is more natural. These condemned men are forced to work constantly in order to live. Opportunities for vice are lacking; they marry and have children. Force men to work and you make them honest. It is well known that great crimes are not committed in the country, except, perhaps, when too many holidays bring on idleness and lead to debauchery.

A Roman citizen was condemned to death only for crimes affecting the welfare of the state. Our teachers, our first legislators, respected the blood of their fellow citizens; we lavish that of ours.

This dark and delicate question has been long discussed: whether judges may punish by death when the law does not expressly require this punishment. This question was solemnly debated before Emperor Henri IV. He judged, and decided that no magistrate could have this power.

There are some criminal cases that are so unusual or so complicated, or are accompanied by such strange circumstances, that the law itself has been forced in more than one country to leave these singular cases to the discretion of the judges. If there really should be one instance in which the law permits a criminal to be put to death who has not committed a capital offense, there will be a thousand instances in which humanity, which is stronger than the law, should spare the life of those whom the law has sentenced to death.

The sword of justice is in our hands; but we ought to blunt it more often than sharpen it. It is carried in its sheath before kings, to warn us that it should be rarely drawn.

There have been judges who loved to make blood flow; such was Jeffreys in England; such in France was a man who was called coupe-tête. Men like these were not born to be judges; nature made them to be executioners.

-- “A COMMENTARY ON THE BOOK, Of Crimes and Punishments,” Voltaire, 1766

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“Laws too gentle, are seldom obeyed; too severe, seldom executed.”    

- Benjamin Franklin

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more of interest: 

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/England_18thc./England_18thc.html

Fun stuff, yes?  We don't always have readings that are as long as those, but this was a really intriguing subject.  And we've learned that for people to have the readings in advnace helps a great deal in prepping the folks for the discussion, especially as the conversation is taking place "in character" in the year 1780.  And there is something else we learned.  Doing that--conducting the discussion in an historical context, conversing as if we are people looking at the issue in question as 18th century people, makes for an interesting exercise.  It also makes it more fun, and that, in turn makes the content more memorable.

The following is a transcript of the salon session about crime and punishment:

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[08:05]  Aldo Stern: I suspect we shall have a modest turnout
[08:05]  Aldo Stern: perhaps the topic is considered by some a bit "dry"
[08:05]  Mercury Gandt: On the contrary, I fond it rather "juicy"
[08:06]  Diogeneia: I would think so
[08:06]  Aldo Stern: it is a topic that certainly affects us all...
[08:07]  Aldo Stern: after all, when you look at crime from a philosophical standpoint...
[08:08]  Aldo Stern: it is an attack on that social agreement that makes society function
[08:09]  Diogeneia: I have been looking at what various thinkers have written on crime, and they all seem to agree that human nature is inclined to do things we would call crime, and it must be punished
[08:10]  Aldo Stern: oh I am sure that there are those who think man in his ideal state would not turn to crime, but I fear our practical experience suggests otherwise
[08:10]  Aldo Stern: what do you think Donna Sere
[08:10]  Sere Timeless: The notion of punishment is deeply seated in religion.
[08:10]  Aldo Stern: is human nature inclined more to be good, if given the chance, or are we naturally selfish?
[08:11]  Sere Timeless: The fallible nature of mankind goes back to the original sin in the Garden of Eden.
[08:12]  Diogeneia: so you think we are naturally inclined to pick pockets and cheat at cards because of Adam and eve?
[08:12]  Mercury Gandt: I can only tell you, what I have seen in my life:
[08:12]  Mercury Gandt: I know so called criminals, who
[08:12]  Mercury Gandt: after committing crimes, never feel shame or regret - ever
[08:13]  Mercury Gandt: They are only bothered by the possibility of getting caught
[08:14]  Sere Timeless: And yet there are so many other people who would never even consider breaking the law unless their life and well-being depended on it.
[08:14]  Aldo Stern: so should we work harder to teach people that they should want to obey laws, or is the threat of being caught and punished more useful?
[08:15]  Diogeneia: maybe a bit of both
[08:15]  Mercury Gandt: Or is it in their character maybe?
[08:15]  Aldo Stern: Well Donna Sere is saying it is the character of some to never wish to break the laws
[08:15]  Sere Timeless: Certainly one cannot underestimate the value of punishment as a deterrent. Some people obviously need more deterrent than others.
[08:16]  Aldo Stern: and the nature of others to be criminals
[08:16]  Aldo Stern: so perhaps Baronessa is correct we need both encouragement--or prevention and punishment
[08:16]  Mercury Gandt: What most surprised me in these readings is, that the authors believe in the good nature of people
[08:16]  Aldo Stern: but how much punishment
[08:16]  Aldo Stern: and what kind is necessary?
[08:17]  Diogeneia: in the Prussian army, the worst crime was desertion...
[08:17]  Diogeneia: you know how the great king worked to prevent it?
[08:18]  Sere Timeless: And what was the punishment for desertion?
[08:18]  Diogeneia: first he made sure the soldiers were fed well and had pride in their profession
[08:18]  Diogeneia: then he reduced the chances of deserting...
[08:18]  Diogeneia: for example he would never set up a camp near a forest if he could help it
[08:18]  Diogeneia: the woods are a deserter's best friend
[08:19]  Diogeneia: and then of course if you deserted and were caught by the gendarmerie, you were flogged
[08:19]  Diogeneia: so it was prevention AND punishment
[08:19]  Mercury Gandt: Very wise, I think
[08:20]  Aldo Stern: On the other hand, you have penal code such as in England, where pretty much everything you technically can be executed for is everything:
[08:21]  Aldo Stern: Theft of property is treated as seriously as treason or murder
[08:21]  Sere Timeless: Which gets to the question of how one decides the appropriate extent of the punishment for a certain crime.
[08:22]  Diogeneia: ah but if your crime is not serious in England, can't they transport you instead of hanging you?
[08:22]  Aldo Stern: well they were doing that, but now that their American colonies are in rebellion they will need a new place to send convicts to.
[08:23]  Aldo Stern: Let us go back for a moment to Signor Gandt's comment
[08:24]  Aldo Stern: you observed that in the readings--Rousseau, Beccaria and Voltaire, there was an emphasis you thought, on the goodness of human nature?
[08:24]  Mercury Gandt: Yes - they believe, every criminal can be useful or good in the future
[08:25]  Mercury Gandt: And they are able to make self-improvement by the punishment
[08:25]  Diogeneia: ah but I think Voltaire was also saying some you can't make them good themselves...
[08:26]  Diogeneia: but you can turn them into a useful thing for society by sentencing them to labor in the dockyards or rowing a galley or something like that
[08:26]  Aldo Stern: which the French do of course...
[08:26]  Aldo Stern: they have gotten away from executing men and instead send them to work in the royal dockyards and arsenals
[08:27]  Aldo Stern: basically as slaves
[08:27]  Mercury Gandt: Very economic (smiles)
[08:28]  Aldo Stern: but are you suggesting Signor Gandt, that the criminal more than likely can't be changed in his ways? that the leopard may never change his spots?
[08:28]  Mercury Gandt: I doubt that this kind of work would be useful at all, done by people who hate it, living in chains
[08:28]  Diogeneia: ha you are probably right
[08:29]  Mercury Gandt: and all their thoughts are around eloping
[08:29]  Diogeneia: I am not so sure I would wish to sail on a ship that had been repaired by angry antisocial lunatics
[08:29]  Mercury Gandt: One of the authors said: give them work and they will be honest
[08:29]  Mercury Gandt: but I would say: give them a goal in their life to reach
[08:30]  Mercury Gandt: and they won't be criminals
[08:30]  Aldo Stern: oh?
[08:30]  Mercury Gandt: give them a reward for their work
[08:30]  Sere Timeless: Voltaire, I believe, said that
[08:30]  Mercury Gandt: which they cab gain realistically, though not easily
[08:31]  Aldo Stern: so then, Signor Gandt, do you basically agree with the idea that the death penalty should not be used as often as it is in some places such as England and a few of the various Italian city states?
[08:32]  Mercury Gandt: I have never met anyone committing such a serious crime, so
[08:32]  Mercury Gandt: I cannot imagine who this man or woman could be...
[08:32]  Mercury Gandt: but
[08:33]  Mercury Gandt: I remember one of my older friends telling about the execution of Damiens
[08:33]  Mercury Gandt: And I never forget it, though I hadn't been there at all!
[08:34]  Diogeneia: I think I agree that if you execute someone, it must be for the worst thing possible...
[08:35]  Mercury Gandt: Yes, exceptional and very rarely done - to remember us what happened in that case
[08:35]  Diogeneia: in a place like England I think hanging is no deterrent, as you get hung for stealing a watch or shooting a man dead
[08:36]  Diogeneia: so if you are a highway man, might you not figure, "well I just stole this fellow's watch, I may as well shoot him so he doesn't tell on me...I get hung either way"
[08:36]  Sere Timeless: If laws are created to ensure that everyone is behaving consistently with the common good, shouldn't punishments also be consistent with the common good?
[08:36]  Aldo Stern: a good point Baronessa
[08:37]  Sere Timeless: A dead criminal can't contribute anything, but a thief forced into labor to repay can contribute something.
[08:37]  Aldo Stern: could you elaborate on that idea, Donna Sere?
[08:38]  Aldo Stern: so you are saying that as Beccaria suggests, the punishment should fit the crime?
[08:38]  Sere Timeless: I do think that is best for society, Professore.
[08:38]  Sere Timeless: And the punishments need to be consistent for whoever commits a certain crime.
[08:39]  Sere Timeless: I find that the wealthy can get away with quite a lot because of their status ins society.
[08:39]  Diogeneia: this is why in Prussian army they flog the deserter, they don't shoot him if they don't have to....they hate to waste a trained man
[08:40]  Aldo Stern: yes, laws are not applied evenly in most cases
[08:41]  Diogeneia: I think punishment works best as a deterrent if the law is applied justly for all
[08:42]  Diogeneia: but I might say differently if I was actually wealthy
[08:42]  Sere Timeless: And what should the punishment be for the judge who does not apply the law equally?
[08:42]  Aldo Stern: a good question
[08:43]  Mercury Gandt: Well, there is everywhere a monarch and a government who makes the law
[08:43]  Diogeneia: *shrugs* if he is wealthy then he should be punished where he would feel it most...his backside is probably too well padded to feel much sting of a flogging, so fine him and hit him in the pocketbook
[08:43]  Mercury Gandt: The monarch is above the law
[08:44]  Mercury Gandt: I'm afraid, the monarch's tradition is defining the philosophy of punishment in his country.
[08:44]  Mercury Gandt: I mean if the monarch is practical, like your Prussian King the system of punishment is about preventing, in a practical and economical way
[08:45]  Aldo Stern: perhaps the monarch is one class of citizen where the best course is to educate them and make sure they understand civic virtue and their responsibility to society
[08:45]  Sere Timeless: And if the monarch does not apply the laws equally will there not be revolt as there is in the English colonies in North America?
[08:45]  Mercury Gandt: Yes - if the monarch is not sure about his own rule...
[08:46]  Aldo Stern: though there have been examples of King who has been punished...your English parliament cut off King Charles head after all
[08:46]  Mercury Gandt: he will force punishments by pure power
[08:46]  Mercury Gandt: Punishments will all about the monarchy's power
[08:46]  Mercury Gandt: and about people or our society
[08:47]  Diogeneia: perhaps you punish a monarch by taking away some of his power
[08:47]  Aldo Stern: let us go back to the issue of death penalties
[08:47]  Aldo Stern: what do you think are crimes for which it should be applied?
[08:48]  Mercury Gandt: Yes, I think, Beccaria was implying King Charles when writing about the death penalty....
[08:48]  Aldo Stern: Rousseau too, perhaps...he was saying that you only execute someone who has the power and the will to hurt the state
[08:49]  Mercury Gandt: Yes... they describe a kind of dictatorship
[08:49]  Diogeneia: Like a King who is acting badly?
[08:49]  Mercury Gandt smiles on the boldness of the Baronessa
[08:49]  Aldo Stern: what about murder?
[08:50]  Aldo Stern: Donna Sere you mentioned the religious origins of our sense of crime and punishment--is an "eye for an eye" just?
[08:50]  Sere Timeless: That is the Old Testament view of punishment, Professore.
[08:50]  Aldo Stern: so then would it be right for society to kill a man who had killed one of his fellow citizens?
[08:51]  Sere Timeless: The more Christian view is to have a criminal redeem himself by penance and good works.
[08:51]  Mercury Gandt: And now we see the moral point of view of punishments :)
[08:52]  Diogeneia: if good works is being an unpaid workers in the royal shipyard, I still don't want to sail on a ship that has been fixed by a crazy killer
[08:53]  Aldo Stern: always the pragmatist, Baronessa
[08:54]  Diogeneia: you bet. I didn't get this old by relying on an idealized view of human nature
[08:54]  Sere Timeless: I should rather sail in a ship whose timbers had been hewn by a criminal in the royal forests.
[08:54]  Mercury Gandt laughs - And pragmatism will always conquer the moral point of view
[08:54]  Mercury Gandt: Better though, than a power-centered point of view conquering
[08:55]  Aldo Stern: but what about deterring crime?
[08:55]  Aldo Stern: what do you think Signor Gandt, you say you know some criminal types--what would turn them away from a life of crime?
[08:56]  Mercury Gandt: Hmmm... some of them are in the Debtors' Prison :)
[08:56]  Mercury Gandt: Maybe laws would prevent them to choose crime
[08:57]  Mercury Gandt: That kind of laws can allow them to follow their plans - for example, new laws about inheritance, marriage
[08:58]  Diogeneia: well to me, and this is as a pragmatist...
[08:58]  Mercury Gandt: Laws that can offer them the possibility to earn their living
[08:58]  Diogeneia: I think you make sure people have enough to eat, they are protected from abuse, and they know their role in society is important...
[08:58]  Diogeneia: less so they will be to turn to crime
[08:59]  Sere Timeless: Wise observations, Baronessa.
[09:00]  Diogeneia: not so wise I think--I just know what I know from watching people
[09:00]  Mercury Gandt: And I agree, you are right
[09:00]  Sere Timeless: What does the group think about the practice of branding criminals like livestock so that they carry the stigma of their crime for the rest of their lives?
[09:02]  Mercury Gandt: Very medieval?
[09:02]  Aldo Stern: I think that goes against Signor Gandt's point that you have to enable people to make a living to keep them from crime...if you brand someone and mark them forever, will it not be harder for them to find work?
[09:02]  Sere Timeless: Do you think it is unnecessary or counter-productive Signore Gandt?
[09:02]  Aldo Stern: not many people willingly will hire a branded thief, I suspect
[09:02]  Aldo Stern: so that person will have no choice but to turn to crime
[09:03]  Mercury Gandt: That stigma will force him to stay on the way of crime....
[09:03]  Diogeneia: yes, exactly
[09:03]  Diogeneia: it is silly, where is the sense in branding someone? it is just being cruel and stupid
[09:04]  Mercury Gandt: Well.. (looking at the fingers of the ladies, searching for a wedding ring...)
[09:04]  Aldo Stern: alas Baronessa, cruelty and stupidity are hallmarks of many legal systems throughout Europe
[09:04]  Mercury Gandt: Branding someone...
[09:06]  Aldo Stern: it is like the old practice of cutting off a thief's hand--probably another Old Testament carryover, do you think, Donna Sere?
[09:06]  Aldo Stern: that is another form of branding
[09:06]  Aldo Stern: and one which made it even harder for the miscreant to find useful work
[09:07]  Sere Timeless: It seems quite similar in intent, though branding does make it possible for the former criminal to do honest work in the future.
[09:07]  Sere Timeless: Cutting off a thief's hand renders him incapable to doing much useful work.
[09:08]  Diogeneia: maybe all a fellow is good for then is begging
[09:09]  Aldo Stern: I know some people might argue that such punishments serve as a lesson tithe public and discourage others from turning to crime...
[09:09]  Aldo Stern: but I have not seen crime greatly reduced in places where the punishments are cruel and numerous.
[09:10]  Mercury Gandt: :) Except, there are no more assassination against the French King since the execution of Damiens
[09:11]  Sere Timeless: Not yet at least, Signor Gandt.
[09:11]  Mercury Gandt: :) not yet
[09:11]  Diogeneia: and who knows maybe there are none for other reasons
[09:12]  Diogeneia: just because one thing follows another, does not mean the one caused the other
[09:12]  Mercury Gandt: For instance? what other reasons can be considered?
[09:13] Aldo Stern: perhaps the king's network of informers is doing a better job ...
[09:13]  Mercury Gandt: I would never think of that... (laughs)
[09:14]  Aldo Stern: perhaps the king is staying in places where it is harder for possible assassins to get at him
[09:14]  Aldo Stern: he avoids going to Paris
[09:14]  Aldo Stern: he avoids contact with people outside the inner circles of the court
[09:14]  Mercury Gandt: Indeed it's true
[09:15]  Mercury Gandt: Because the conditions in his country are hardly any better...
[09:15]  Aldo Stern: yes
[09:18]  Aldo Stern: although he was probably a bit mad
[09:18]  Sere Timeless: Professore, this has been a fascinating discussion, but I'm afraid I must take my leave.
[09:18]  Aldo Stern: Donna Sere, thank you for joining us
[09:18]  Diogeneia: Auf wiedersehen
[09:18]  Sere Timeless: Signore Gandt, Baronessa it has been lovely to see you. And Professore also.
[09:19]  Mercury Gandt: It was my pleasure
[09:19]  Aldo Stern: thank you for your contributions to the discussion
[09:19]  Sere Timeless curtsies.


Finally, let me conclude with one other thing we seem to be learning: having modest attendance is not necessarily a bad thing.  Some of the best discussions have been with very small groups of participants.  But then that is one of the beauties of the platform, isn't it?  Doing this in virtual space is very cost effective compared to running an event in meatspace.  Therefore, you don't need to worry about having a big hairy audience in the same way that you do when you are meeting in a bricks and mortar space, and you feel a need to justify the expense and effort that goes with using that type of venue.

~~~